Tai chi 103 form vs. 108 form: why the numbers differ
When I started Tai Chi in 2004, I learned the long Yang form. My teacher called it the 108 form. Later, I discovered that the Yang family counts 103 moves. I found that confusing. I wondered: is there a difference between Tai Chi 103 form vs. 108 form?
Quick answer: no, the 103 form and the 108 form are the same sequence of movements. Some people even count 85 moves or 150 moves. It is not clear where 103 comes from, and 108 might be there for spiritual reasons. It’s definitely confusing.
So let’s dive into the details. I used my own list of the 108 form and the Yang family 103 form to compare.
The moves that get counted differently
Preparation and beginning
The different counting starts right at the beginning of the form. In the 103 form, Preparation and Beginning are counted separately.
103 form
1. Yù Bèi – Preparation
2. Qǐ Shì – Beginning
108 form
1. Qǐ Shì – Beginning
I find this surprising, because I thought the 103 form would always count less. But actually, that is not the case.
Grasp Sparrow’s Tail
Grasp Sparrow’s Tail itself is counted the same way in both forms, as one move made up of Ward-off, Rollback, Press, and Push. The difference sits right before it: the 108 form counts a separate Ward-off move between Beginning and Grasp Sparrow’s Tail, which the 103 form does not count on its own.
103 form
2. Qǐ Shì – Beginning
3. Lán Què Wěi – Grasp the Bird’s Tail
108 form
2. Zuǒ Péng – Ward-off (Left)
3. Lán Què Wěi – Grasp the Sparrow’s Tail
So even though the first moves are counted differently, both forms then continue at the same number for a while. (I added a more detailed list below).
Repulse Monkey
For Repulse Monkey, there is not a difference in how the move is counted, but how often. The 103 form does Repulse Monkey 3x; in the 108 form it’s 5x.
103 form
19. Zuǒ Dào Niǎn Hóu – Step Back and Repulse the Monkey, Left
20. Yòu Dào Niǎn Hóu – Step Back and Repulse the Monkey, Right
21. Zuǒ Dào Niǎn Hóu – Step Back and Repulse the Monkey, Left
108 form
20. Yòu Dào Niǎn Hóu – Retreat to Repulse Monkey, Right
21. Zuǒ Dào Niǎn Hóu – Retreat to Repulse Monkey, Left
22. Yòu Dào Niǎn Hóu – Retreat to Repulse Monkey, Right
23. Zuǒ Dào Niǎn Hóu – Retreat to Repulse Monkey, Left
24. Yòu Dào Niǎn Hóu – Retreat to Repulse Monkey, Right
I noticed that 103 starts with left, while 108 starts with Repulse Monkey Right. That’s strange. But I will think about that in another post.
Cloud Hands
Strangely, in the 108 form, the Cloud Hands are counted as one, even though there are several repetitions. The 103 form counts 3 Cloud Hands.
103 form
32. Yún Shǒu (1) – Cloud Hands (1)
33. Yún Shǒu (2) – Cloud Hands (2)
34. Yún Shǒu (3) – Cloud Hands (3)
108 form
35. Yún Shǒu – Cloud Hands (several times)
Did you know that Cloud Hands is move that repeats the most throughout the whole 108 form?
And another fun fact: someone once told me that the repetitions of Repulse Monkey should be the same as Cloud Hands. So if you do 3 Repulse Monkey, then do 3 Cloud Hands.
Extra Left Brush Knee
Right before Punch Down, the 108 form counts one more Left Brush Knee than the 103 form.
103 form
41. Yòu Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Right Brush Knee and Push
42. Jìn Bù Zāi Chuí – Step Forward and Punch Down
108 form
42. Yòu Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Right Brush Knee and Push
43. Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee
44. Jìn Bù Zāi Chuí – Step Forward and Punch Down
Wild Horse’s Mane
Same as Repulse Monkey, the difference here is in how often the move repeats, not how it’s counted. The 103 form does Wild Horse’s Mane 3x; the 108 form does it 5x. Overall it seems that 108 does more repetitions than 103.
103 form
57. Yòu Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōng – Parting Wild Horse’s Mane, Right
58. Zuǒ Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōng – Parting Wild Horse’s Mane, Left
59. Yòu Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōng – Parting Wild Horse’s Mane, Right
108 form
59. Yòu Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōng – Parting Wild Horse’s Mane, Right
60. Zuǒ Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōng – Parting Wild Horse’s Mane, Left
61. Yòu Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōng – Parting Wild Horse’s Mane, Right
62. Zuǒ Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōng – Parting Wild Horse’s Mane, Left
63. Yòu Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōng – Parting Wild Horse’s Mane, Right
Fair Lady Works Shuttles
Again, this is a question of how to count repetitions. 103 simply asks for Fair Lady Works at Shuttles, while 108 is more specific.
103 form
62. Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō – Fair Lady Works at Shuttles
108 form
67. Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō – Fair Lady Works at Shuttles (Left)
68. Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō – Fair Lady Works at Shuttles (Right)
69. Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō – Fair Lady Works at Shuttles (Left)
70. Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō – Fair Lady Works at Shuttles (Right)
High Pat on Horse and Palm Thrust
Near the end of the form, the two forms split this part differently. The 103 form counts a Single Whip followed by a combined move, High Pat on Horse with Palm Thrust. The 108 form doesn’t mention the Single Whip and counts High Pat on Horse and Palm Thrust as two separate moves.
103 form
88. Dān Biān – Single Whip
89. Gāo Tàn Mǎ Chuān Zhǎng – High Pat on Horse with Palm Thrust
108 form
95. Gāo Tàn Mǎ – High Pat on Horse
96. Chuān Zhǎng – Palm Thrust
What I would like to add here is that the oral version is also different. For example, even though Single Whip is not mentioned in this part of the 108 form, I assume every teacher calls it out during practice.
Closing
Cross Hands actually shows up three times in the form, each one closing out one of the three parts. In the 108 form, it’s always just Cross Hands. In the 103 form, the first two times it’s just Cross Hands too, but the very last time, at the true end of the form, it’s followed by Closing and then Return to Normal.
103 form
101. Shí Zì Shǒu – Cross Hands
102. Shōu Shì – Closing
103. Huán Yuán – Return to Normal
108 form
108. Shí Zì Shǒu – Cross Hands
A detailed list of counting the form
I already showed the different moves that are counted differently. If you want to dive deeper, this is a detailed table with all the differences.
| Move | 103 form | 108 form |
|---|---|---|
| Yù Bèi – Preparation | 1 | – |
| Qǐ Shì – Beginning | 2 | 1 |
| Zuǒ Péng – Ward-off, Left | – | 2 |
| Lán Què Wěi – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail | 3 | 3 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 4 | 4 |
| Tí Shǒu Shàng Shì – Raise Hands and Step Forward | 5 | 5 |
| Bái Hè Liàng Chì – White Crane Spreads Its Wings | 6 | 6 |
| Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee and Push | 7 | 7 |
| Shǒu Huī Pí Pá – Hand Strums the Lute | 8 | 8 |
| Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee and Push | 9 | 9 |
| Yòu Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Right Brush Knee and Push | 10 | 10 |
| Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee and Push | 11 | 11 |
| Shǒu Huī Pí Pá – Hand Strums the Lute | 12 | 12 |
| Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee and Push | 13 | 13 |
| Jìn Bù Bān Lán Chuí – Step Forward, Parry and Punch | 14 | 14 |
| Rú Fēng Sì Bì – Apparent Close Up | 15 | 15 |
| Shí Zì Shǒu – Cross Hands (1st) | 16 | 16 |
| Bào Hǔ Guī Shān – Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain | 17 | 17 |
| Lán Què Wěi – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail | – | 18 |
| Zhǒu Dǐ Chuí – Fist Under Elbow | 18 | 19 |
| Repulse Monkey | 19 left | 20 right |
| Repulse Monkey | 20 right | 21 left |
| Repulse Monkey | 21 left | 22 right |
| Repulse Monkey | – | 23 left |
| Repulse Monkey | – | 24 right |
| Xié Fēi Shì – Diagonal Flying | 22 | 25 |
| Tí Shǒu Shàng Shì – Raise Hands | 23 | 26 |
| Bái Hè Liàng Chì – White Crane Spreads Its Wings | 24 | 27 |
| Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee and Push | 25 | 28 |
| Hǎi Dǐ Zhēn – Needle at Sea Bottom | 26 | 29 |
| Shàn Tōng Bèi – Fan Through the Back | 27 | 30 |
| Zhuǎn Shēn Piē Shēn Chuí – Turn Body, Chop with Fist | 28 | 31 |
| Jìn Bù Bān Lán Chuí – Step Forward, Parry and Punch | 29 | 32 |
| Lán Què Wěi – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail | 30 | 33 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 31 | 34 |
| Yún Shǒu – Cloud Hands (repeated) | 32–34 | 35 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 35 | 36 |
| Gāo Tàn Mǎ – High Pat on Horse | 36 | 37 |
| Yòu Fēn Jiǎo – Right Separation Kick | 37 | 38 |
| Zuǒ Fēn Jiǎo – Left Separation Kick | 38 | 39 |
| Zhuǎn Shēn Zuǒ Dēng Jiǎo – Turn, Left Heel Kick | 39 | 40 |
| Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee and Push | 40 | 41 |
| Yòu Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Right Brush Knee and Push | 41 | 42 |
| Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee | – | 43 |
| Jìn Bù Zāi Chuí – Step Forward, Punch Down | 42 | 44 |
| Zhuǎn Shēn Piē Shēn Chuí – Turn Body, Chop with Fist | 43 | 45 |
| Jìn Bù Bān Lán Chuí – Step Forward, Parry and Punch | 44 | 46 |
| Yòu Dēng Jiǎo – Right Heel Kick | 45 | 47 |
| Zuǒ Dǎ Hǔ Shì – Strike Tiger, Left | 46 | 48 |
| Yòu Dǎ Hǔ Shì – Strike Tiger, Right | 47 | 49 |
| Huí Shēn Yòu Dēng Jiǎo – Turn, Right Heel Kick | 48 | 50 |
| Shuāng Fēng Guàn Ěr – Twin Fists Strike Ears | 49 | 51 |
| Zuǒ Dēng Jiǎo – Left Heel Kick | 50 | 52 |
| Zhuǎn Shēn Yòu Dēng Jiǎo – Turn, Right Heel Kick | 51 | 53 |
| Jìn Bù Bān Lán Chuí – Step Forward, Parry and Punch | 52 | 54 |
| Rú Fēng Sì Bì – Apparent Close Up | 53 | 55 |
| Shí Zì Shǒu – Cross Hands (2nd) | 54 | 56 |
| Bào Hǔ Guī Shān – Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain | 55 | 57 |
| Xié Dān Biān – Diagonal Single Whip | 56 | 58 |
| Wild Horse’s Mane (right) | 57 | 59 |
| Wild Horse’s Mane (left) | 58 | 60 |
| Wild Horse’s Mane (right) | 59 | 61 |
| Wild Horse’s Mane (left) | – | 62 |
| Wild Horse’s Mane (right) | – | 63 |
| Zuǒ Péng – Ward-off, Left | – | 64 |
| Lán Què Wěi – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail | 60 | 65 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 61 | 66 |
| Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō – Fair Lady Works Shuttles | 62 | 67 left |
| Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō | – | 68 right |
| Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō | – | 69 left |
| Yù Nǚ Chuān Suō | – | 70 right |
| Zuǒ Péng – Ward-off, Left | – | 71 |
| Lán Què Wěi – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail | 63 | 72 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 64 | 73 |
| Yún Shǒu – Cloud Hands (repeated) | 65–67 | 74 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 68 | 75 |
| Xià Shì – Snake Creeps Down | 69 | 76 |
| Zuǒ Jīn Jī Dú Lì – Golden Rooster, Left | 70 | 77 |
| Yòu Jīn Jī Dú Lì – Golden Rooster, Right | 71 | 78 |
| Repulse Monkey | 72 left | 79 right |
| Repulse Monkey | 73 right | 80 left |
| Repulse Monkey | 74 left | 81 right |
| Repulse Monkey | – | 82 left |
| Repulse Monkey | – | 83 right |
| Xié Fēi Shì – Diagonal Flying | 75 | 84 |
| Tí Shǒu Shàng Shì – Raise Hands | 76 | 85 |
| Bái Hè Liàng Chì – White Crane Spreads Its Wings | 77 | 86 |
| Zuǒ Lōu Xī Ǎo Bù – Left Brush Knee and Push | 78 | 87 |
| Hǎi Dǐ Zhēn – Needle at Sea Bottom | 79 | 88 |
| Shàn Tōng Bèi – Fan Through the Back | 80 | 89 |
| Zhuǎn Shēn Bái Shé Tǔ Xìn – Turn, White Snake Spits Tongue | 81 | 90 |
| Jìn Bù Bān Lán Chuí – Step Forward, Parry and Punch | 82 | 91 |
| Lán Què Wěi – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail | 83 | 92 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 84 | 93 |
| Yún Shǒu – Cloud Hands (block) | 85–87 | 94 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 88 | – |
| Gāo Tàn Mǎ – High Pat on Horse | 89 | 95 |
| Chuān Zhǎng – Palm Thrust | – | 96 |
| Shí Zì Tuǐ – Cross Kick | 90 | 97 |
| Jìn Bù Zhǐ Dāng Chuí – Step Forward, Punch Groin | 91 | 98 |
| Lán Què Wěi – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail | 92 | 99 |
| Dān Biān – Single Whip | 93 | 100 |
| Xià Shì – Snake Creeps Down | 94 | 101 |
| Shàng Bù Qī Xīng – Seven Stars | 95 | 102 |
| Tuì Bù Kuà Hǔ – Step Back, Ride the Tiger | 96 | 103 |
| Zhuǎn Shēn Bǎi Lián – Turn, Swing Over Lotus | 97 | 104 |
| Wān Gōng Shè Hǔ – Bend Bow, Shoot Tiger | 98 | 105 |
| Jìn Bù Bān Lán Chuí – Step Forward, Parry and Punch | 99 | 106 |
| Rú Fēng Sì Bì – Apparent Close Up | 100 | 107 |
| Shí Zì Shǒu – Cross Hands (3rd) | 101 | 108 |
| Shōu Shì – Closing | 102 | – |
| Huán Yuán – Return to Normal | 103 | – |
Does the different counting in Tai Chi 103 form vs. 108 form actually matter?
Honestly, no. Whether you call it the 103 form or the 108 form, you are practising the same sequence of postures. The count is just a way of naming the form, not a verdict on which version is more correct or more authentic.
I still call it my 108 form, because that is what my first teacher taught me and I like the nostalgia of it. If your teacher counts 103, or 85, or something else entirely, that does not mean either of you is doing it wrong. It just means someone, at some point, decided to count a Cloud Hands rep separately, or fold a Single Whip into another move.
So if you ever find yourself in a room with practitioners who learned a different count than you, don’t worry. As long as you all agree to run the long Yang form, you should be fine. Maybe just clarify the number of repetitions before you start.
And no matter how you count, I guess there is one thing we can all agree on: it is a looooong form! And I love practicing it!
Angelika
If you are interested in more details about form moves, read my blogpost about the meaning of Grasp the Bird’s Tail!